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Input Sensitivity - matching Monitors to a Home Audio DAC

pull9gs, muokattu 5 Vuodet sitten.

Input Sensitivity - matching Monitors to a Home Audio DAC

Youngling Viestejä: 2 Liittymispäivä: 12.7.2016 Viimeisimmät viestit
I’m struggling to understand the method of insuring compatibility of input sensitivity between Genelec Monitors and a Home Audio DAC.

I wish to create a home stereo setup using a pair of either 8040B or G Four connected via a balanced input to a DAC with volume control.

Considering the following DACs with quoted maximum output levels:
[*:bv7gh0wz]Audiolab M-DAC: 4.5V rms[/*:m:bv7gh0wz]
[*:bv7gh0wz]Cambridge Audio DacMagicPlus: 4.1V rms[/*:m:bv7gh0wz]

I do not understand if either are suitable. I’ve searched the forum but cannot find a definitive answer to what my relatively inexperienced mind seems to think is a straightforward numerical answer - a voltage range.

I understand that the G series are lower due to the difference between home and professional industry standards. I have tried to calculate the required voltages given the nominal Genelec -6dBu is 100dB@1m but my answers seem to be either too narrow or too wide a range.


1. What is the optimum input voltage range for the 8040B?
2. What is the optimum input voltage range for the G Four?
3. What is an acceptable tolerance on the 8040B voltage range given the -6dB/+6dB infinite adjustability?
4. What is an acceptable tolerance on the G Four voltage range given the -10dB/+10dB step adjustability?


If these figures are straightforward then I can search for a DAC with the most appropriate output level and decide if the 8040B or G Four is more suited to my application.

Many thanks
ilkka-rissanen, muokattu 5 Vuodet sitten.

Re: Input Sensitivity - matching Monitors to a Home Audio DA

Yoda Viestejä: 2564 Liittymispäivä: 23.3.2009 Viimeisimmät viestit
Hello,

Maximum input level is the only number you should be "worried" about. 8040B and G Four models can accept at least 20 dBu / 7.75 volt RMS maximum input level which means that pretty much every DAC on the market is suitable for them. :)
wooderson, muokattu 5 Vuodet sitten.

Re: Input Sensitivity - matching Monitors to a Home Audio DA

Youngling Viestejä: 9 Liittymispäivä: 21.10.2015 Viimeisimmät viestit
Hi Ilkka,

similar question:
I've got a YAMAHA CX-A5000 Pre-AVR with balanced output connected to my 8351As via analog XLR.
The Yamaha Pre-Out has 2.0 V/ 470 Ohms nominal with 8.5 V max (while 0.06 % THD).

There is 0 – -42 dB via the two DIP-switches combines with the rotary switch, right?
What would be the best input sensitivity setting on the 8351As side in that use-case?

thanks
ilkka-rissanen, muokattu 5 Vuodet sitten.

Re: Input Sensitivity - matching Monitors to a Home Audio DA

Yoda Viestejä: 2564 Liittymispäivä: 23.3.2009 Viimeisimmät viestit
Hi,

I would start with -10 dB or -20 dB setting and test if those give you good volume adjustment range. Don't you have GLM 2.0 kit yet? :o

http://www.genelec.com/studio-monitors/glm-20-software
wooderson, muokattu 5 Vuodet sitten.

Re: Input Sensitivity - matching Monitors to a Home Audio DA

Youngling Viestejä: 9 Liittymispäivä: 21.10.2015 Viimeisimmät viestit

I would start with -10 dB or -20 dB setting and test if those give you good volume adjustment range.


OK, that means its like try and error, so there is no "mathematical" way by knowing the numbers of the setting?


Don't you have GLM 2.0 kit yet? :o


Of course I have, that why I made the decision for Genelec :D
But I don't use the GLM for adjusting the volume, its always fixed on 0 dB for analog source (I do not use the digital input).

Did I miss the point or what has GLM to do with the input sensitivity question?

thanks
ilkka-rissanen, muokattu 5 Vuodet sitten.

Re: Input Sensitivity - matching Monitors to a Home Audio DA

Yoda Viestejä: 2564 Liittymispäivä: 23.3.2009 Viimeisimmät viestit

OK, that means its like try and error, so there is no "mathematical" way by knowing the numbers of the setting?

You can do some calculations but there is no single 'right' value, it all depends how you want to scale you system's gain structure. :)

Default (maximum) input sensitivity of the 8351A is 100 dB (at 1 meter distance) with -6 dBu signal. Maximum output of the monitor is 111 dB which means that you need -6 dBu + 11 dB = 5 dBu input signal to reach it. Maximum output of your Yamaha is rated at 8.5 V which translates to 21 dBu. That is 21 dBu - 5 dBu = 16 dB more than is required for the maximum output which means you can lower the input sensitivity of the monitor by at least this amount, probably even more because I doubt you will constantly push your monitors to maximum SPL (if you do, you will most likely need bigger monitors). So, -10 to -20 dB setting for input sensitivity would be my starting point for testing. Of course it also depends how much of the maximum volume range of Yamaha you want to use. Some people want to use only half of it, some prefer more.



Of course I have, that why I made the decision for Genelec :D
But I don't use the GLM for adjusting the volume, its always fixed on 0 dB for analog source (I do not use the digital input).
Did I miss the point or what has GLM to do with the input sensitivity question?

Oh good! Yes, you have missed a very important point. :) GLM volume setting is the same as input sensitivity adjustment, it just has more range, from 0 to 120 dB. Also, when you are using GLM, all manual settings behind the monitor are overridden. The only dip you need to enable is the stored settings switch which enables the monitor to remember the GLM settings stored in it. In order to set the input sensitivity via GLM, go to Group | Store current group settings at current volume level to SAM monitors, and have the volume slider for example at -20 dB then. Obviously you don't need to have music playing then.
jussisallinen, muokattu 1 Vuosi sitten.

RE: Input Sensitivity - matching Monitors to a Home Audio DAC

Youngling Viestejä: 6 Liittymispäivä: 30.7.2020 Viimeisimmät viestit
ilkka-rissanen:

OK, that means its like try and error, so there is no "mathematical" way by knowing the numbers of the setting?

You can do some calculations but there is no single 'right' value, it all depends how you want to scale you system's gain structure.

Default (maximum) input sensitivity of the 8351A is 100 dB (at 1 meter distance) with -6 dBu signal. Maximum output of the monitor is 111 dB which means that you need -6 dBu + 11 dB = 5 dBu input signal to reach it. Maximum output of your Yamaha is rated at 8.5 V which translates to 21 dBu. That is 21 dBu - 5 dBu = 16 dB more than is required for the maximum output which means you can lower the input sensitivity of the monitor by at least this amount, probably even more because I doubt you will constantly push your monitors to maximum SPL (if you do, you will most likely need bigger monitors). So, -10 to -20 dB setting for input sensitivity would be my starting point for testing. Of course it also depends how much of the maximum volume range of Yamaha you want to use. Some people want to use only half of it, some prefer more.

 

Of course I have, that why I made the decision for Genelec
But I don't use the GLM for adjusting the volume, its always fixed on 0 dB for analog source (I do not use the digital input).
Did I miss the point or what has GLM to do with the input sensitivity question?

Oh good! Yes, you have missed a very important point. GLM volume setting is the same as input sensitivity adjustment, it just has more range, from 0 to 120 dB. Also, when you are using GLM, all manual settings behind the monitor are overridden. The only dip you need to enable is the stored settings switch which enables the monitor to remember the GLM settings stored in it. In order to set the input sensitivity via GLM, go to Group | Store current group settings at current volume level to SAM monitors, and have the volume slider for example at -20 dB then. Obviously you don't need to have music playing then.

 

 

Thanks a lot for the write-up!

As my Allen & Heath Xone:96 mixer has +24dBu output with Master Out at full I’ve set analog Input Gain on 8350A’s to -18dB, mixer Master Out at full results in +6dBu input signal on Genelec’s which equals 112dB.. bet I won’t never need to go there at home ;)

 

 

wooderson, muokattu 5 Vuodet sitten.

Re: Input Sensitivity - matching Monitors to a Home Audio DA

Youngling Viestejä: 9 Liittymispäivä: 21.10.2015 Viimeisimmät viestit
Hi Ilkka,

Thats an hack of an explanations! I think I got it.
So input sensitivity is more like (pre-) amplification inside the speakers and its done in the digital domain? Thats why it can be done with GLM?

I know its a matter of taste how to use the volume range on the main interface. But if one wants to have the best "audiophile" performance, is it better to use high input sesitivity or high signal volume on the source side? Do the Genelecs sound different at 0 dB than at lets say -30 dB? I could image that it depends on the amplification since every curciut behaves different on how strong the signal is?
ilkka-rissanen, muokattu 5 Vuodet sitten.

Re: Input Sensitivity - matching Monitors to a Home Audio DA

Yoda Viestejä: 2564 Liittymispäivä: 23.3.2009 Viimeisimmät viestit
Hi Ilkka,

Thats an hack of an explanations! I think I got it.
So input sensitivity is more like (pre-) amplification inside the speakers and its done in the digital domain? Thats why it can be done with GLM?

Yes, correct. :)


I know its a matter of taste how to use the volume range on the main interface. But if one wants to have the best "audiophile" performance, is it better to use high input sesitivity or high signal volume on the source side? Do the Genelecs sound different at 0 dB than at lets say -30 dB? I could image that it depends on the amplification since every curciut behaves different on how strong the signal is?

As you say, it depends on the whole signal chain, starting from the source and ending at the monitors. The best thing is that you can easily test it yourself, just compare the sound with different settings and listen if you can hear any difference. If you can't, then it makes no difference, right? ;)
pull9gs, muokattu 5 Vuodet sitten.

Re: Input Sensitivity - matching Monitors to a Home Audio DA

Youngling Viestejä: 2 Liittymispäivä: 12.7.2016 Viimeisimmät viestit
Thanks for the replies.

I'm looking to make the purchase in the new year. Unfortunately I'm still not sure which monitor to choose.

Maximum input level is the only number you should be "worried" about. 8040B and G Four models can accept at least 20 dBu / 7.75 volt RMS maximum input level which means that pretty much every DAC on the market is suitable for them. :)


It's great to hear that both are suitable but clearly there is a reason for creating both products for the two different applications.

Please could you explain which is most suited to my specific application with the DACs listed above?

Thanks
ilkka-rissanen, muokattu 5 Vuodet sitten.

Re: Input Sensitivity - matching Monitors to a Home Audio DA

Yoda Viestejä: 2564 Liittymispäivä: 23.3.2009 Viimeisimmät viestit
Hi there,

When it comes to the input sensitivity setting, 8040 and G Four are almost identical, it should not make any difference whatsoever to your DAC selection.

8040: +6 dBu to -6 dBu for 100 dB SPL output (default: -6 dBu)
G Four: +4 dBu or -6 dBu for 100 dB SPL output (default: +4 dBu)

Both listed DACs are suitable with both models.