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GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wired

talex, modified 5 Years ago.

GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wired

Padawan Posts: 41 Join Date: 8/27/15 Recent Posts
Hi,

I'm using GLM v2 to control a 8330 + 7350 setup. I'm using them both in nearfiled position at my desk 0.7m distance and from a listening location 2m back.
I've been using the 9101A Wireless Volume Controller so that i have flexibility and can control volume from both locations, however for desktop use from close the wired volume control is superior and i prefer it because it allows for quicker adjustments while preserving good precision.
Currently GLM v2 does not allow control from both the wired and the wireless volume controllers forcing you to chose one of the other instead of having the best of two worlds.
If the wired control is plugged, the wireless control does not work any more. This seems like strictly a software limitation as one can override wired volume control in GLM by choosing one of the preset levels.

FEATURE REQUEST: please allow for the concomitant use of both wired and wireless volume controllers to control volume in GLM. it could work like this:
- if wired volume control was used to adjust volume, pressing the wireless control moves you up & down from there overriding wired control
- when one returns to the wired control and moves it, volume resumes from that position (it's not easy to make a mistake with the wired control as there is a knob that shows you how loud you are at that moment)

If you do not consider this feature "safe" as a default, it could be enabled via a menu.
The benefit is that it would allow for easy volume control in both nearfield and midfield positions. In nearfield position the wired volume control is superior whereas in midfield is inconvenient to use and wireless is more convenient.
ilkka-rissanen, modified 5 Years ago.

Re: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wir

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts

- when one returns to the wired control and moves it, volume resumes from that position (it's not easy to make a mistake with the wired control as there is a knob that shows you how loud you are at that moment)

Hi,

It can be done but I think you described the most challenging issue there. It is quite difficult to see the volume level by looking at the knob, and it can cause some scary moments if the knob is set to high level once you start to turn it.
talex, modified 5 Years ago.

Re: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wir

Padawan Posts: 41 Join Date: 8/27/15 Recent Posts
Hi,

This could be mitigated by gradually increasing / decreasing the volume towards where the physical volume knob is when the physical knob is engaged after using the wireless remote to set the volume. This would give the user time to react as they would already be at the knob if volume is ramping up.
This would happen only when transitioning between the two. The user would get used really soon with this behaviour and in return would get more flexibility.

Another possible issue is that for me, in some positions, the physical volume knob is not 100% stable, for example if i set it to -50db, sometimes it shifts to -45.5db and than back. So the move in the volume knob to trigger the transfer should be at least 1db to avoid this issue.

A less elegant way to implement this would be to provide more preset listening levels in GLM v2 as 2 is far too little to use that as "volume control" from remote.
For different types of materials (music/movie/general content) the mastering level seems to differ so for example I would need at least 6 preset levels to easily control volume from far away (loud music, normal music, loud movies, normal movie, etc.).

Either way, I think it's a valuable feature that needs to be explored, as i simply cannot control volume from the far away listening position when the volume knob is connected and placed at the nearfield position which is a bit frustrating. I do not consider disconnecting the physical knob when moving to nearfield position as that would wear down the connection really quick. The wire for the physical knob is also a bit short to take with me.

What do you think? :-)
How do others deal with this?
ilkka-rissanen, modified 5 Years ago.

Re: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wir

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts

Another possible issue is that for me, in some positions, the physical volume knob is not 100% stable, for example if i set it to -50db, sometimes it shifts to -45.5db and than back. So the move in the volume knob to trigger the transfer should be at least 1db to avoid this issue.

This is just a visual issue, the actual volume level does not fluctuate. We have made some adjustments on the volume controller behaviour in the latest adapter firmware which should help with this issue.


A less elegant way to implement this would be to provide more preset listening levels in GLM v2 as 2 is far too little to use that as "volume control" from remote.
For different types of materials (music/movie/general content) the mastering level seems to differ so for example I would need at least 6 preset levels to easily control volume from far away (loud music, normal music, loud movies, normal movie, etc.).

Either way, I think it's a valuable feature that needs to be explored, as i simply cannot control volume from the far away listening position when the volume knob is connected and placed at the nearfield position which is a bit frustrating. I do not consider disconnecting the physical knob when moving to nearfield position as that would wear down the connection really quick. The wire for the physical knob is also a bit short to take with me.

What do you think? :-)
How do others deal with this?

Is there a specific reason to use the wired volume controller? Would not these problems vanish if you would only use the wireless controller?
talex, modified 5 Years ago.

Re: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wir

Padawan Posts: 41 Join Date: 8/27/15 Recent Posts

Is there a specific reason to use the wired volume controller? Would not these problems vanish if you would only use the wireless controller?


In my experience the wired volume controller is vastly superior to the wireless volume controller when used at the desk in nearfield position.

I like the wired control better because it allows for both precise and rapid adjustments even if we're talking about a few decibels or a lot of decibels. The hand gets used with the linear movement required and it becomes reflex to instantly set a certain volume level.

The wireless remote on the other hand is only good for very slow and small adjustments.
After the last fw update it works in 0.5db increments. So to turn the volume up a few dbs i need to push it 2 x the number of db times.

If i want to adjust the volume faster or in bigger increments with the wireless remote, i need to keep the button pushed and than it seems to ramps up volume adjustment in a non linear fashion? (it gets loader quicker the more you press); quite a few times i ended up with more volume that i wanted to and i had to adjust the other way. I cannot seem to learn/build a reflex on the amount required to push to reach a certain volume delta which is often the case when things aren’t happening how your brain expects them to :-)

The wireless remote offers zero feedback about what is going on, so if audio is not playing you have no clue where you are volume wise after adjusting without looking at the GLM window.
Had a few accidents when i though audio should be playing but was not audible trough the monitors. So i tried turning the volume up a few times (thinking i was too quiet). Then i realised that maybe something is wrong with the soruce, tried to fix it and than i get stuff playing in my ears at -10db. This is my mistake of course, but it never happend with the wired controller as you always know where you are by feeling the indent in the wheel and if unsure a quick swipe to the left ensures there is no high volume to worry about.

The wireless remote also needs line of sight to the GLM kit so in my desktop setup i either need to ensure the two are aligned or i have to do weird hand motion so that my screen or something else doesn't block the signal :-)

All in all, the wireless remote eventually gets the job done, it's a simple design, but i hope you don't blame me I'm not a big fan of it and i would prefer to only use it when i have to (when i'm far from the desk) :-)
ilkka-rissanen, modified 5 Years ago.

Re: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wir

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts

The wireless remote also needs line of sight to the GLM kit so in my desktop setup i either need to ensure the two are aligned or i have to do weird hand motion so that my screen or something else doesn't block the signal :-)

The connection is RF (not IR) based so there should not be need for that.
talex, modified 5 Years ago.

Re: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wir

Padawan Posts: 41 Join Date: 8/27/15 Recent Posts
Hi Ilkka,

For of all i realise i might be in the minority with this request so thank you for taking the time to answer my comments.


The wireless remote also needs line of sight to the GLM kit so in my desktop setup i either need to ensure the two are aligned or i have to do weird hand motion so that my screen or something else doesn't block the signal :-)

The connection is RF (not IR) based so there should not be need for that.


I've been living with the wireless remote for more than a year now. I have a normal desktop setup with the GLM box sitting on top of my computer, hardly obstructed (picture attached).
I've done some repeated tests this morning to recheck my claims. I’ve tried over 20 tries from the desk (0.5m to GLM box) and 20 from remote (2.5m from the GLM box) to set volume up and down and see how it works.
From up close, most of the time the remote works flawlessly even while pointing trough the computer screen. Ever once in a while (~2-3 tries out of 20) the remote suffers micro signal dropouts which means that for example if you’ve kept pushing the volume button, volume ramp up stops and drops to 0.5db increments. This causes volume control to be not 100% predictable.
From the far position, despite having clear line of sight, micro dropouts happen more often (~3-5 out of 20) again decresing the predictibility of volume control.
It’s not a mechanical issues as i’m fully depressing the button.
In the room i have other wireless and bluetooth devices, but nothing out of the ordinary, but i’m guessing that RF interference cause these micro-drop outs. I dont imagine this can be easily replicated so i never bothered to make a video or to submit a support call for it.

Second, after doing the tests, as there was no audio playing i forgot the volume set to 0db. This is not the first time it happened. Naturally got a bit of audio shock whenever the first audio source started playing….
Sure, it’s my fault, I’m working with professional tools i should now what i’m doing. But after working as a software engineer all my career, i know that a core tennant of good software and hardware design is that the design itself prevents or decreases the chance of user error when complete prevention is not possible.
In the case of the GLM system the design does not do that. Outside of the GLM window (that is normally hidden during normal use) there is zero indication of where you are or that you are in the danger zone. Nothing is red to indicate high volume, there is no visual or tactil feedback on the remote on what the current volume level is, or on the monitors or wherever.
So if you don’t mind I will keep my opinion that the wireless volume control can be improved and i really do hope you do improve it whenever the next iteration comes, as it would be a very poor match for the 8351s that i hope to get someday.
This is in contrast with the quality and reliability of the monitors - there is simply nothing i would improve or that i can suggest for improvement with those.

So long story short:

1. Would you at least consider the possibility of dual volume control?
- as you’ve done with the “enable usb control” menu function, this could also be an optional feature for those who need the extra flexibility or from whatever reason favor the wired volume control; volume fading would prevent abrupt volume resuming when the wired controller is reenagaged
- it should be very easy to implement (i think that you’re actually actively blocking it now in the software) and could be an interesting project for maybe a less experience software engineer trying to get familiar and some practice with the GLM codebase

2. I would like to find a way to limit volume below -30db so that the volume safety issue is completly taken care of as i never need that much volume headroom.
I’m also worried about a kid playing with the volume control as the monitors and remote are easily accessible.
Is there a way to do this without impacting audio quality? Either from GLM or from a AES/EBU PCIE card that I just got.

Thank you & Best regards,
Alex.
ilkka-rissanen, modified 5 Years ago.

Re: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wir

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts

1. Would you at least consider the possibility of dual volume control?
- as you’ve done with the “enable usb control” menu function, this could also be an optional feature for those who need the extra flexibility or from whatever reason favor the wired volume control; volume fading would prevent abrupt volume resuming when the wired controller is reenagaged
- it should be very easy to implement (i think that you’re actually actively blocking it now in the software) and could be an interesting project for maybe a less experience software engineer trying to get familiar and some practice with the GLM codebase

We will consider it but I can't give any promises. :)


2. I would like to find a way to limit volume below -30db so that the volume safety issue is completly taken care of as i never need that much volume headroom.
I’m also worried about a kid playing with the volume control as the monitors and remote are easily accessible.
Is there a way to do this without impacting audio quality? Either from GLM or from a AES/EBU PCIE card that I just got.

I like this idea. :) We could implement a "maximum volume level" option which would limit the volume for example to -30 dB. This sort setting is quite common in other devices.

When it comes to your setup picture, please move your speakers forward so that they are not blocked by the monitor/screen. Such placement will give you huge reflections off the monitor/screen. :o
talex, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Re: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wir

Padawan Posts: 41 Join Date: 8/27/15 Recent Posts
 
ilkka-rissanen:

1. Would you at least consider the possibility of dual volume control?
- as you’ve done with the “enable usb control” menu function, this could also be an optional feature for those who need the extra flexibility or from whatever reason favor the wired volume control; volume fading would prevent abrupt volume resuming when the wired controller is reenagaged
- it should be very easy to implement (i think that you’re actually actively blocking it now in the software) and could be an interesting project for maybe a less experience software engineer trying to get familiar and some practice with the GLM codebase

We will consider it but I can't give any promises. :)
 

2. I would like to find a way to limit volume below -30db so that the volume safety issue is completly taken care of as i never need that much volume headroom.
I’m also worried about a kid playing with the volume control as the monitors and remote are easily accessible.
Is there a way to do this without impacting audio quality? Either from GLM or from a AES/EBU PCIE card that I just got.

I like this idea. :) We could implement a "maximum volume level" option which would limit the volume for example to -30 dB. This sort setting is quite common in other devices.

When it comes to your setup picture, please move your speakers forward so that they are not blocked by the monitor/screen. Such placement will give you huge reflections off the monitor/screen. :o

Hi Ilka,

We were discussing a bit of time ago regarding two potential GLM features that would make my life (and hopefully also somebody elses) easier while using GLM.
I was wondering if there are any news regarding them :-)

Just for reference, we were discussing about:

1. Implementing a maximum volume level for monitors
For example constraining monitors to max out at -30 or -40 or whatever level seems enough for the user. Accidently turning the volume to -0 due to making a mistake or due to someone else operating the volume knob (ex: a child) or due to a software glitch (audio not properly playing and than starting at full blast) is a potential safety hazard especialy using powerful monitors at nearfield range. It happened to me twice in two years and it was not nice at all.

2. Using both the wireless and wired control
I was arguing that the wired control is much ergonomic and precise on the desk while the wireless one is more conveninent when remote from the monitors. Being able to switch between the two would give the best of two worlds while only needing to worry about how to make the volume handoff seamless between the two.


 

ilkka-rissanen, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wired

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts

Hi,

1. This has already been implemented in the 2.2.0 version. There is a new feature called startup volume which will work just as you described. You can find it in the Setup menu.

2. This is not implemented as there are some big issues when it comes to handling two separate volume controllers safely so that one does not suddenly end up with full volume setting. Unfortunately I don't see this being implemented.

 

talex, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wired

Padawan Posts: 41 Join Date: 8/27/15 Recent Posts

Hi Ilkka,

 

OK, thank you for the feedback. I understand regarding feature 2.

 

Regarding feature 1 - I've installed the latest GLM build and verified all devices have latest firmware, but i cannot make the feature work for me.

 

What i am doing: I've loaded my normal group. I've set volume to -40db. I've activated Setup / Store Current Level as Startup (Standalone) from the menu.

 

What i'm expecting: I'm expecting not to be able to surpass -40db using the software volume, wired remote or wireless remote.

What is happening: I can move freely past -40db using any of the 3 methods of setting the volume.

 

What is going on? Did i misunderstand / misuse this feature?

 

Thanks!

 

ilkka-rissanen, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wired

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts

Hi,

As described in the menu, the startup level feature works only in standalone mode i.e. when the GLM software is not running and the GLM network is not connected/active, meaning either volume controller can't be active . Startup volume is meant for situations where volume is controlled by the source/external device, not by the GLM of either of our volume controllers. Sorry if this was unclear.

talex, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Re: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wir

Padawan Posts: 41 Join Date: 8/27/15 Recent Posts
ilkka-rissanen:
I like this idea. :) We could implement a "maximum volume level" option which would limit the volume for example to -30 dB. This sort setting is quite common in other devices.

HI Ilkka,

I was 100% sure that we were talking about limiting volume in any scenario :(((

-> If this GLM feature is only valid in standalone mode, than what is the difference beween it and a previous feature in GLM that was something like “Store current settings in active monitors at current level” ? Don’t they do exactly the same thing?

-> Is there any practical way to limit usage of the -30db to -0db range when using GLM without decreasing sound quality? I would like my monitors to never surpass -30db. Because i use the monitors in a home environment, it is easy for my wife of for a child to operate the volume knob or wireless remote. Hitting 0db by mistake in a nearfield scenerios is not pleasant at all. Could you please support me with this? It is a very common useful feature present in other systems.

 

 

ilkka-rissanen, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: Re: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wir

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts
Alexandru T:
ilkka-rissanen:
I like this idea. :) We could implement a "maximum volume level" option which would limit the volume for example to -30 dB. This sort setting is quite common in other devices.
 

HI Ilkka,

I was 100% sure that we were talking about limiting volume in any scenario :(((

-> If this GLM feature is only valid in standalone mode, than what is the difference beween it and a previous feature in GLM that was something like “Store current settings in active monitors at current level” ? Don’t they do exactly the same thing?

-> Is there any practical way to limit usage of the -30db to -0db range when using GLM without decreasing sound quality? I would like my monitors to never surpass -30db. Because i use the monitors in a home environment, it is easy for my wife of for a child to operate the volume knob or wireless remote. Hitting 0db by mistake in a nearfield scenerios is not pleasant at all. Could you please support me with this? It is a very common useful feature present in other systems.

 

 

Volume offset and startup volume are two different parameters which work in conjugation with each other. But they both are meant for standalone use. If GLM is active, there are no volume restrictions. However, there is a method to limit the individual level for each monitor/subwoofer unit. If you go to the acoustic editor in GLM main grid, you will see a level setting which is normally adjusted by the AutoCal during calibration process. If you want to limit your system's maximum SPL to for example 30 dB below the theoretical maximum output of 130 dB (equals to 0 dBFS signal), you would need to adjust level to -30 dB for all monitors and subwoofers in the system. If the AutoCal has made any level adjustments between each monitor and subwoofer, you need to take those into account in order to preserve correct level calibration of the system.  

 
talex, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wired

Padawan Posts: 41 Join Date: 8/27/15 Recent Posts

Dear Ilkka, 

Thank you so much for the feedback. I understand now how to implement this via the level adjustment in GLM.

Seeing your reply, it made me realise that my RME AES EBU interface also has level setting for the specific software input channel and for the main out. I could for example set the main level to -30db and achieve the same effect.

What method would be best to preserve sound quality (GLM vs AES interface)? Would any impact sound quality in a positive or negative way? 
I remember reading something in your monitor manual about decreasing monitor level and increasing source level to improve quality? So than the GLM way would be better ?

Screenshot here: http://imgur.com/a/pZpx2

Thank you so much!

ilkka-rissanen, modified 5 Years ago.

RE: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wired

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts
I would recommend using GLM for the level adjustment because then you will preserve higher level during the signal processing inside the monitor.
svart-hvitt, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wired

Padawan Posts: 35 Join Date: 5/6/16 Recent Posts

A brand new Digital Audio Tool, developed by Lake People, may accomplish what some people seek, i.e. both wired and wireless volume control.

The Lake People DAT RS 05 box (http://www.lake-people.de/produktdetails/DAT_RS_05.html) has lots of digital inputs and AES-EBU output. Relevant features are:

 

Digital Volume Control - "old school" digital volume attenuator
Remote Control (option) - for input selection, sample rate, motorized volume control

 

Could this box solve the volume control issues some people have addressed?

talex, modified 5 Years ago.

Re: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wir

Padawan Posts: 41 Join Date: 8/27/15 Recent Posts

We will consider it but I can't give any promises. :)

I like this idea. :) We could implement a "maximum volume level" option which would limit the volume for example to -30 dB. This sort setting is quite common in other devices.

When it comes to your setup picture, please move your speakers forward so that they are not blocked by the monitor/screen. Such placement will give you huge reflections off the monitor/screen. :o



Regarding dual volume control -> Thank you very much for considering this & I understand you cannot make any promises.


Regarding max vol level -> That would be truly wonderful! For me for as a home user there is zero practical use for the 0db to -30db range on the other hand it is a safety hazard.


Regarding positioning -> Thank you very much for the suggestions. I realise my setup is very bad but i have very little wiggle room and i have no room to rearrange things.
If i bring the monitors closer, the tweeter and woofer don't properly combine and they sound strange, as well as there is no more room left for the mouse :-)
I'm also having trouble due to the wall on the left. Did i mention the subwoofer is behind me as i have no room under the desk? : ))))

Nonetheless, as you promised a year ago :-), with the help of GLM calibration the 8330s+7350 sound incredible, and i do have frame of reference to compare !
For the 8351s/8260s that i plan to get i am already planning the proper space and placement, but all in due time!
greymonitor, modified 5 Years ago.

Re: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wir

Youngling Posts: 5 Join Date: 7/14/11 Recent Posts
Doesn't the Griffin Powermate USB Controller do exactly what you want?

It is quite a different device from the wired controller:
The 9310A is a device with hard min/max stops that presents a positional value to the GLM interface. The Powermate turns endless left or right and interfaces to the GLM software, sending relative values.
talex, modified 5 Years ago.

Re: GLM Feature request - volume control both wireless & wir

Padawan Posts: 41 Join Date: 8/27/15 Recent Posts
Hi,

Thank you for this suggestion, i have not tried the powermate; i'll get one if i can find a good deal.

Meanwhile, I'd prefer Genelec find a way for their two products (wireless and wired volume controller) to get along so i dont have to spend 65eur more for something that i already have on my desk... :-)