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8330APM with a different SUB

mfkmuzik, modified 7 Years ago.

8330APM with a different SUB

Youngling Posts: 6 Join Date: 5/15/15 Recent Posts
Hello everybody:
I have a question about an issue that I am trying to resolve and would appreciate any feedback from anyone.

I recently purchased 8330 APM pack. It is yet to arrive in few days.
I plan to use it along with my SUB (EVE Audio TS108).
As I will utilize the APM Pack along with the new genelec GLM2.0 with desktop monitor controller, what would be the best way to connect the SUB to the 8330 system?

should I run the GLM2.0 calibration with the sub connected? if so, what would be the optimal way to connect it?
Below is the way that I though it would be:
I would appreciate if any one of you could comment if there is anything wrong with this setup.
I will report back once I setup the system in few days.
Thank you and all the best

audio interface main out (Apogee Duet) --> SUB main inputs (L/R) --> SUB satellite speaker outs (L/R) --> 8330 auido inputs (Left speaker and Right speaker)

GLM connected to MAC via USB
8330 connected to each other and to the GLM network via network cables (RJ45)
Desktop volume controller connected to the GLM network adapter
Run GLM software as 2.1 speaker system (L/R+Sub) and calibrate accordingly.


I will do additional calibration for the desktop volume controller and the Apogee Duet Volume knob for optimal volume in room setup.

The TS108 sub has a seperate remote control which I can turn On or OFF remotely or simply BYPASS the Sub for only speaker audition without SUB.
1038, modified 7 Years ago.

Re: 8330APM with a different SUB

Jedi Master Posts: 340 Join Date: 4/6/09 Recent Posts
It doesn't matter how you connect as the calibration test tones are generated from within each speaker, you can calibrate without any signal cables connected.
mfkmuzik, modified 7 Years ago.

Re: 8330APM with a different SUB

Youngling Posts: 6 Join Date: 5/15/15 Recent Posts
Great,
So my setup is correct.
Thank you
1038, modified 7 Years ago.

Re: 8330APM with a different SUB

Jedi Master Posts: 340 Join Date: 4/6/09 Recent Posts
Remember that GLM won't control the volume of your sub, it will only control the 8330's.

For system volume control you'll need to use your audio interface. I'd wire the outputs from your interface to the sub, then from the sub to each 8330. I read that the sub has a switchable 80Hz filter for the outputs, use this filter.

You'll need to calibrate your sub for phase and level, an spl meter will help you do this.
mfkmuzik, modified 7 Years ago.

Re: 8330APM with a different SUB

Youngling Posts: 6 Join Date: 5/15/15 Recent Posts
First thanks to Steve for valuable input and guidance... :)

my new 8330 amp pack has just arrived today.
I set the system up, installed GLM2.0 beta to my mac...

everything worked juts fine except sometimes audio cuts out while playing if the GLM program is open!
probably this is some sort of glitch for the beta version and it would be fixed for the real version...

I connected the system digitally.
I directly went out from my good old trusty M-Audio (AVID) FastTrack C600 SPDIF out (via SPDIF to XLR AES/EBU conversion cable) to 8330 XLRdigital in.

upo completing the calibration, I have experienced a total bliss with this system. I have used many speakers prior to owning a genelec including, NeumannKH120A, Focal Solo 6Be, Yamaha HS8, Eve Audio SC305. This system by far the best sounding and most revealing among all. I do not want to do injustice to the others since I did not have any means of acoustic improvements applied for accurate auditioning but this GLM thing alone is worth a lot!

The difference is like day and night when engaging the BYPASS button...

I am not even sure to use the SUB anymore!!! the provided BASS info (after calibration) seems enough (not as much as I would want to have) for now...the whole frequency spectrum is very clear, focused and detailed. I just sat down and listened music (some of my old favourites) for more than an hour which is not what I do most of the time...I just dont have enough time to sit and listen music for hours like I used to do (back in good old days !).

I am even scared to connect the Apogee Duet and use its analog outs (123 Db dynamic range on the D/A converters!).
Though this case made me curious about the internal D/A performance characteristics about the 8330!

Has any one known the dyanamic range of the internal D/A? What chip does Genelec use (Burr Brown!) ?
would it be better to utilise the 8330 with an external D/A like Benchmark or MYTEK or LYRA or else?
Or would it be best to use it via digital inputs if internal D/A is in par with the best known D/As out there?
Any one for thoughts?
1038, modified 7 Years ago.

Re: 8330APM with a different SUB

Jedi Master Posts: 340 Join Date: 4/6/09 Recent Posts
Congrats, glad you are loving your 8330's :)

In regards to using your apogee, simply connect it up and compare, with the 8330's you can run both AES/EBU & Analog. Simply duplicate your current 8330 Group, via group- duplicate group, then edit group, rename it 8330 analog and switch the input type to analog.

By duplicating the group, all your calibration settings are copied so you don't need to recalibrate :)

By having both connected it is now extremely easy to compare your apogee's analog output against Genelec's conversion. I have a client who is using a Bricasti M1 DAC before his new 8351's, the M1 acts as a preamp in his system. Every DAC is going to sound slightly different, so plug in your apogee and go spend a few more hours listening to music :)
anttil, modified 7 Years ago.

Re: 8330APM with a different SUB

Youngling Posts: 13 Join Date: 9/4/13 Recent Posts
How is the crossover executed in SAM series? If it is done with DSP, then there's always DA (or AD+DA) conversion happening inside the speaker?
1038, modified 7 Years ago.

Re: 8330APM with a different SUB

Jedi Master Posts: 340 Join Date: 4/6/09 Recent Posts
All analog input signals are converted back into the digital domain for DSP processing.
ilkka-rissanen, modified 7 Years ago.

Re: 8330APM with a different SUB

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts
Hi all,

As Steve wrote, there will always be DA conversion done inside the speaker, even though you would use external DA because the internal processing is always done in digital domain (whether you use GLM or not!).

So, if you would like to minimize the number of conversions, digital input signal should be used. That way the ONLY conversion is the DA done inside the speaker before the power amplifiers. :)
mfkmuzik, modified 7 Years ago.

Re: 8330APM with a different SUB

Youngling Posts: 6 Join Date: 5/15/15 Recent Posts
Thanks to Steve and Ilkka:

I will agree with Ilkka.
It seems like due to the internal processing of this system, whatever type of signal is fed to the 83XX, the signal needs to be digital for DSP processing!
So it is logical to feed the signal in digital form via digital XLR inputs (AES/EBU) to minimize the signal degradation (by avoiding two conversion;
1) two conversion: analog signal --> A/D conversion --> digitized signal ---> DSP signal processing --> D/A conversion ---> amps)
2) single conversion: digital signal ---> DSP signal processing --> D/A conversion ---> amps

However, I would like to Ilkka to please answer what type of conversion Genelec use inside the 83XX.
Please let me know the type of AD/DA chip, the Dynamic Range, THD+N values as to know the technical specs of the internal conversion process.

I will also take Steve's advice to try and listen,
a) Apogee Duet analog outs (Dyn Range: 123dB (A-weighted), Rel. THD+N : -113dB (@96Khz), ESS Sabre32 32-bit Hyperstream DAC with Time Domain Jitter Eliminator offering unequalled dynamic range, ultra low distortion, and unmatched audio clarity free from input jitter.) - Specs are taken directly from Apogee site.

b) M-Audio Fast Track C600 spdif digital outs (via SPDiF RCA to XLR AES/EBU conversion cable)

I will also record the auditioning session from the 8330 for both secenerios and upload the files as MP3 to have your ear's opinion.
ilkka-rissanen, modified 7 Years ago.

Re: 8330APM with a different SUB

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts

However, I would like to Ilkka to please answer what type of conversion Genelec use inside the 83XX.
Please let me know the type of AD/DA chip, the Dynamic Range, THD+N values as to know the technical specs of the internal conversion process.

Hello,

Unfortunately this is confidential information which I can't disclose. I can let you know that the chips we are using are among the very best there are available in the market and there is no need to doubt their quality. Every online and magazine review, as well numerous user reviews have constantly praised the quality of our DSP range speakers and I have yet read a single comment where people would have gained any benefit by adding an external DA before the speakers. It just does not make any sense because that way you are only adding the number of conversions which will inherently cause signal distortion. :)
mfkmuzik, modified 5 Years ago.

Re: 8330APM with a different SUB

Youngling Posts: 6 Join Date: 5/15/15 Recent Posts
Dear Ilkka:
Thank you for your kind reply.

Despite the fact that I respect the confidential information that you could not disclose because it might be a trade secret. However It is unfortunate to hear that you coculd not even quote;
the dynamic range and THD+N values of your D/A system.You should have been able to quote that at the least. I think we would have the right to now these specs as a consumer!

Anyhow, I will not dig any more into this subject but I wish I would have known it...

I have conducted a test to determine which way is better to listen to.

As per your suggestion ( by running both AES/EBU & Analog lines to the 8330, I simply duplicated the current 8330 Group, via group- duplicate group, then edit group, renaming it and switching the input type to analog. By duplicating the group, all my calibration settings were copied and as you said I did not need to recalibrate :)

For the analog connection, I used the M-Audio Fast Track C600 anolog outs (I did not connect the Apogee DUET this time) just to keep it in the same domain!...
For Digital connection, I kept the same setting as coming out of the C600 SPDIF RCA out to the 8330 XLR AES/EBU input.

I used Blue Microphones YETI Pro condenser microphone in Stereo Setup dirrectly connected to a MAC Book Pro via USB streaming audio at 192Khz at 24 bits.

There was a significant difference between the analog and digital outs about 14dB digital out being more!
I could not determine the reason why despite I checked everything and all settings. So I tried to calibrate both outs via an SPL meter and made sure that both auditioning levels were equal at -40dB shown by the GLM2 potentiometer.

I positioned the mic right at my listening position as close as possible to my ear level.
I recoreded both sessions to Protools with 192kHz at 24 bits with no processing.
Upon completing both recordings, I burned each file as a WAVE file and created the highest quality MP3s which are both uploaded here for everybody's taste.

Since MP3 extensions are not allowed in this site, I have uploaded them to amazon cloud and below links are for auditioning the files.

8330 Analog:
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share ... _link_copy

8330 Digital:
https://www.amazon.com/clouddrive/share ... _link_copy

This may not make any sense for some of you but it is a test to determine the difference in listening quality between anaolg and digital connections to Gen 8330 from the same device.

I used a song from Duft Punk album called "Fragments of Time" (feat. Todd Edwards)

I would appreciate any one's comments on both experiences.
Note: Also attached is an image of my setup.
Cheers to everyone.
ilkka-rissanen, modified 7 Years ago.

Re: 8330APM with a different SUB

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts
Dear Ilkka:
Thank you for your kind reply.

Despite the fact that I respect the confidential information that you could not disclose because it might be a trade secret. However It is unfortunate to hear that you coculd not even quote;
the dynamic range and THD+N values of your D/A system.You should have been able to quote that at the least. I think we would have the right to now these specs as a consumer!

Dear mfkmuzik,

We are not selling separate D/A chips but complete active monitoring speakers instead. Therefore we do not list performance values of single components, although it seems to be in fashion these days by many companies, even though a single specification does not make any sense because the actual performance is dictated by the whole signal chain (inside and outside the speaker).

You can find all available technical data from the operating manual of each speaker model: http://www.genelec.com/documents/opmans ... _opman.pdf