Sub for 8020B in small room

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android9, modified 11 Years ago.

Sub for 8020B in small room

Youngling Posts: 8 Join Date: 4/20/12 Recent Posts

Hi,

I use the 8020B's because I'm monitoring in a small room (only approx 210 cm wide & 345 cm long)
The 8020's themselves stand only 70 cm apart and between 10 - 20 cm from the wall / window (still playing with position) - they are near corners, but not in the corners which are straddled with traps.

A few recent experiences, reviewing mixes done in my working room - in proper studios (where I've been disapointed by the lack of bass) & a couple of comments / feedbacks from clients (suggesting more bass end) - has prompted me into looking at a sub.

Obviously I want a Genelec Sub to compliment the 8020's - but I just want to check - that in this small difficult room - the 7050B (Why do some stores call it the 7050BPM ?!) - is the right choice ? Or should I even consider the 5040A ?

I do have the 8030's in another studio, so in due course the 7050B could be useful with those speakers as well .. but priority is making the right decision for this room, with the 8020B's..

So put simply my questions are :

Selection :
Based on the info - which sub should I select / consider ?

Placement in a small space:
To be between the 8020's - the sub would have to be under the desk - is this OK ?

Neighbours :
I'm in an urban environment - would floor placement greatly increase bass passing through to the floor below
(it's not a REALLY thin floor - but then it's not specifically isolated either .. - so kind of in the middle)
- if so, do you have some suggestions for significant decoupling
(I know I can find a rubber mat - or some rubber bricks perhaps - but wondered if you have any other specific suggestions)

Many thanks for any direction you can give - and thanks for your fine product range !

ilkka-rissanen, modified 11 Years ago.

Re: Sub for 8020B in small room

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts

So put simply my questions are :

Selection :
Based on the info - which sub should I select / consider ?

Hi, 7050B or the new 5051A are the best choices for you. They have similar performance but completely different outlook.

7050BPM is just the complete name code for the product.

7050 = product name/number
B = revision
P = producer finish
M = magnetically shielded

Placement in a small space:
To be between the 8020's - the sub would have to be under the desk - is this OK ?

Desk doesn't cause any problems. It's more of the placement inside the room which counts. You said you have bass traps in the corners so I would guess you don't have huge bass problems (modal behaviour) in your room?

Neighbours :
I'm in an urban environment - would floor placement greatly increase bass passing through to the floor below
(it's not a REALLY thin floor - but then it's not specifically isolated either .. - so kind of in the middle)
- if so, do you have some suggestions for significant decoupling
(I know I can find a rubber mat - or some rubber bricks perhaps - but wondered if you have any other specific suggestions)

A rubber mat can help if the subwoofer will directly resonate against the floor, although usually this isn't a problem. Whether the subwoofer lies on the floor or somewhere else doesn't really affect to the bass your neighbours will hear. That sound will transfer through the air so the best option is to add more bass traps to attenuate the room modes which will be the loudest frequencies inside your room.

android9, modified 11 Years ago.

Re: Sub for 8020B in small room

Youngling Posts: 8 Join Date: 4/20/12 Recent Posts

Hey Thanks !
the 5051A looks great ! Wasn't aware of that..

I can't find anyone stocking them atm though .. I'm in Netherlands .. any ideas on retailers, by any chance ?

- The remote control integration with the whole sound system looks goo also ..

If I want to switch the bass extension / sub woofer off and on - are the 8020s/8030s still active ?
ie I can monitor with and without the sub ?

Thanks for your helps

)

ilkka-rissanen, modified 11 Years ago.

Re: Sub for 8020B in small room

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts

Hey Thanks !
the 5051A looks great ! Wasn't aware of that..

I can't find anyone stocking them atm though .. I'm in Netherlands .. any ideas on retailers, by any chance ?

Please contact our distributor for further information on dealers.

Iemke Roos Audio B.V.
Kuiperbergweg 20
1101 AG Amsterdam, Netherlands
Mr. Frank de Roy
T +31 20 697 2121
F +31 20 697 4201
E sales@iemkeroos.nl
W www.iemkeroos.nl

- The remote control integration with the whole sound system looks goo also ..

If I want to switch the bass extension / sub woofer off and on - are the 8020s/8030s still active ?
ie I can monitor with and without the sub ?

Thanks for your helps

)

5051A doesn't have a bypass option for the subwoofer. The mute button will mute the whole system. The 7060B is the first model that has a bypass option.

android9, modified 11 Years ago.

Re: Sub for 8020B in small room

Youngling Posts: 8 Join Date: 4/20/12 Recent Posts

Thanks for your continued help Ilkka, really appreciate it

Have just mailed this distributor..

On the mute thing .. is it easy to just turn the 5051A down in volume ? ie as an effective mute ?
Sorry I've no idea where the controls are - and how simple - practical this would be ..

Is there a reason why Genelec omit the bypass option ?

Also - obviously superficially the 5051A looks very similar to the 5040A ..
But considering the pricing difference - I'm presuming they are very different beasts ?

What are the main differences to consider between the two ?
Particularly for a stereo (not surround) setup ...
- I don't know if there is a comparison chart .. I couldn't find one ..

Thanks again

android9, modified 11 Years ago.

Re: Sub for 8020B in small room

Youngling Posts: 8 Join Date: 4/20/12 Recent Posts

Ah right .. a little read of this previous thread does expand a little on the differences between the 5040A and the 5051A ... viewtopic.php?f=4&t=168

But the 5040A is really made for the 6000 series, not the 8000 series .. although apparently, they combination with 8020 and 8030 can work..

android9, modified 11 Years ago.

Re: Sub for 8020B in small room

Youngling Posts: 8 Join Date: 4/20/12 Recent Posts

.. Also (sorry to add to the queue of points) - this distributor has just informed me that the 5051A is primarily aimed at home theater applications. Is this so ?
I use my Genelec speakers solely for music production..
Thanks again

ilkka-rissanen, modified 11 Years ago.

Re: Sub for 8020B in small room

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts

On the mute thing .. is it easy to just turn the 5051A down in volume ? ie as an effective mute ?
Sorry I've no idea where the controls are - and how simple - practical this would be ..

There is no actual volume control available, only an input gain control which range is around 20 dB so it won't work as an effective mute. It is also located to the bottom of the subwoofer which is not easily accessible during normal use.

Is there a reason why Genelec omit the bypass option ?

We think that the typical user of this subwoofer model won't need the bypass option. If we would have added it, it would have added the complexity of the filter board design and of course the price of the subwoofer.

ilkka-rissanen, modified 11 Years ago.

Re: Sub for 8020B in small room

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts

Ah right .. a little read of this previous thread does expand a little on the differences between the 5040A and the 5051A ... viewtopic.php?f=4&t=168

But the 5040A is really made for the 6000 series, not the 8000 series .. although apparently, they combination with 8020 and 8030 can work..

5040A is best matched with the 6010A but it can also work with the 8020 and 8030. The only problem is the maximum spl of the system which is then limited to the maximum spl of the subwoofer which is lower than the maximum spl of the 8020, not to mention the even capable 8030. 5051A will be a better match with the 8020 and 8030.

ilkka-rissanen, modified 11 Years ago.

Re: Sub for 8020B in small room

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts

.. Also (sorry to add to the queue of points) - this distributor has just informed me that the 5051A is primarily aimed at home theater applications. Is this so ?
I use my Genelec speakers solely for music production..
Thanks again

Yes, 5051A is primarily aimed at the home audio market but there is no reason why it couldn't be used for music production. It has very similar performance to the 7050B which is the equivalent product in the professional subwoofer range.

android9, modified 11 Years ago.

Re: Sub for 8020B in small room

Youngling Posts: 8 Join Date: 4/20/12 Recent Posts

Hi Ilkka,

Thank you for all your help thus far !
Getting there !

Believe it or not, I am now leaning towards the 5040A ..
This is because I am in such a small room, I use the 8020B's on 12'oclock volume anyway ..
- at a later date, if necessary I can purchase the 7050B or 5051A.. but in this room I really feel the 7050B is going to be over kill ..
Also - it appears that the 5040A comes with a volume control which can be mapped to the 5040A only ? (ie rather than the whole system) - this means one can create a kind of bypass .. this is actually a big deal for me..

I have done quite a bit of reading on the possibility of using the 5040A with the 8020 + 8030's

I understand that the volume pot on either (although currently am only planning on using it in conjunction with 8020's) should be set to 12'oclock ..

- are there any other considerations I need to bare in mind ?

Critically :

1 ) - I know it sounds like a dumb question - but how do I connect the 5040A to the 8020B's ?
The connections on the 5040A seem to be ... phono ?

2 ) - You mentioned in another thread about a 'bass lift' "A 3 - 4 dB bass lift will appear between 50 Hz and 100 Hz. This can be compensated by slightly lowering the subwoofer's gain."

- by making the suitable adjustments to the setup and positioning - a suitable representation of the total frequency range is achievable though ? - it's not like you will always be stuck with dips and bumps (the room size / shape / treatment aside) - the 5040A in combi with the 8020B (and 8030) can yield the full reference field correctly ? - the only main issue is loss of power / volume ?

Anything else I'm not thinking of ?

Sorry for my ignorance & many thanks for your help !

)

android9, modified 11 Years ago.

Re: Sub for 8020B in small room

Youngling Posts: 8 Join Date: 4/20/12 Recent Posts

Oh - ok, right yeh - I think these are the jobs arn't they http://www.thomann.de/gb/cordial_cfu_15_mc.htm

ilkka-rissanen, modified 11 Years ago.

Re: Sub for 8020B in small room

Yoda Posts: 2564 Join Date: 3/23/09 Recent Posts

The volume pot can't control the subwoofer volume only, it always controls the whole system volume, assuming that the speakers are routed through the subwoofer as they should be.

8020's input gain pot should be set to 12 o'clock and you should take extra care when adjusting the phase control. If the speakers and subwoofer are placed relatively close to each other, usually the 90 degree phase settings gives the best result.

5040A has RCA type connectors so the cables you linked are the right ones.

The frequency response will be very close to optimal flatness with the 8020+5040 combination. The problems you get from room acoustics will be much much bigger.

android9, modified 11 Years ago.

Re: Sub for 8020B in small room

Youngling Posts: 8 Join Date: 4/20/12 Recent Posts

Thanks for the info - that's really appreciated - I've ordered the 5040A - so will find out soon enough !

Yes I had since figured - by looking at the manual and product shot that there is only one place for the vol control to go into - and so would basically have to be on a different output from the mixer ..

I mean .. if I wire the 8020's separately from the desk - from the 5040 .. and adjust position / calibrate .. set volume preferences by ear (cross referencing suitable familiar material on well known headphones - to check bass response / levels etc) - and find a balance which by listening - in the listening position - I deem to represent similar bass response to my familiar headphones (i like to check over the Sennheiser HD650's and also my smaller earbuds - which I listen to most material from ipod) - is there anything really wrong with setting position & volume of the units manually / by ear ?

- I mean of course, assuming one knows how to use one's ears :mrgreen:

Or is that a real nono ?
- that volume control on the bass unit alone, would sure be handy !