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Stereo, surround and crossover

jvi, modified 4 Years ago.

Stereo, surround and crossover

Youngling Posts: 5 Join Date: 5/16/18 Recent Posts

Greetings all,

I've been a satisfied Genelec owner for a number of years, but I've only just recently upgraded to a high end surround setup (5.1) with 8351A serving as the LCR speakers and with the 8341A filling the role of the two surround channels. At the time I went ahead with my plan to upgrade my home theater (roughly the same time last year - 8341A came into the picture later), there wasn't a Genelec subwoofer around that I was too keen on having as the finishing piece to this setup - which is why I went with a non-Genelec sub that, for the most part, I was completely content with. Now however, since then, the 7380A has come around, and I'm in the process of moving from my current subwoofer to just that - completing the setup for the foreseeable future.

My question, as you might have guessed from the title, is one about crossover - specifically how it should be set up in a situtiation where all my sources for music (stereo) and entertainment (blu-ray, streaming and more). As things currently stand, I'm able to control where the subwoofer kicks in with a remote / app. Whenever I'm on a source that has LFE activity, I'm able to use a 'profile' stored to the sub where plays at it's full range of frequencies fills the spot of that channel (all speakers are set as full band - no lower frequencies any of the other channels are forwarded to the sub) and when I switch to a source where everything's stereo (music players), I'm able to switch to a profile that has a Low-pass filter set to 34Hz, so that it does kick in, but only at frequencies lower than the fronts (L, R) put out. 

This is a convenience I'm left wondering if I'm going to miss out on moving forward. From what I understand, GLM can be used to make groups in a similar fashion, but I assume this also means that to change how the sub is utilized (ie. changing groups - where in on group the sub would only output sound at frequncies under where the GLM sees the fronts lose definition, enabling for fuller low end when listening to music and another where it would function up to 120Hz as it would when operating as the LFE channel) would have to be done with a laptop attached to the sub (presumably none of the other speakers?) via an ethernet cable. Now if it's as simple as that, then it's not much of a deal breaker. However, paranoid as I am, I'm wondering if this is the solution. 

Once I have the actually product around, there will be a professional to run through the setup on GLM when the sub is being placed for the first time - but since I'll be needing a laptop handy to change any groups, I'm assuming I'll need to bring a GLM kit of my own the living room, if the answer to my question lies in the above paragraph.

Certainly, from what I understand, setting any kind of crossover manually (can be setup in ten hertz increments down to 40Hz if in use on my AVR - and I've found this to be the case with all consumer A/V processors or receivers I've looked at) on the AVR side in tandem with GLM's measurements isn't something you want to do - and renders GLM's measurements moot. Also, from what I undertand, with speakers like the top end Ones, you wouldn't want to put out lower end from one of the surround channels to the sub when they can go as low as they can - essentially, from what I've gathered, it's best to let LFE take care of just that when it comes to surround sound.

 

Sorry for the incredibly awkward vocabulary, and I understand this maybe isn't an easy 'question' to parse through. As you might've gathered, I'm by no means an advanced user, but I do care for getting the most out of my setup with all my sources.

 

lukester, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Stereo, surround and crossover

Jedi Master Posts: 296 Join Date: 4/22/10 Recent Posts

You will want a gml kit of your own anyway.

it's an excellent volume controller, maybe you can discard your AVR in the near future.

Also, wehenver you change your setup you'll have to measure again. and it's really not hard at all.

GLM can run without computer if you feed it power from e.g. a phone charger.

 

i see no contradiction between GLM and AVR. GLM stores room responses and crossover frequencies, delays permanently to your speakers.

sound will be improved if signal comes from AVR or whatever.

 

personally, i prefer 2 smaller subs over a large one, helps stereo music listening imho. placing them directly underneath your L & R.

 

 

jvi, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Stereo, surround and crossover

Youngling Posts: 5 Join Date: 5/16/18 Recent Posts

 

True, I'll definitely want to have a GLM kit of my own around sooner or later.

Perhaps, a better summary of my issue/inquiry would be this: 

- I have everything plugged to an AVR via analogue inputs.

- My sources (record player, streaming music player and a game console) are connected to aforementioned AVR

- Currently, I have the GLM measured settings stored to all my Genelec speakers (L, C, R, LS, RS)

- All Genelec speakers are set to 'Full Band' - no bass management is set up on AVR

- The listening mode that I use on my surround sound source (game console) passes all processing (ie. 'pure' mode)

- The listening mode that I use for my stereo sources (both music players) works in similar fashion ('Direct'), but also passes the sound from Left and Right channels to the subwoofer

- To eliminate subwoofer playing over the same frequencies as the Left and Right channels (8351A), I'm able to switch to a stored profile using the remote (read: remote specific to the subwoofer) for my current subwoofer to enable a LPF for the subwoofer that's set to 34Hz (note: not an accurate measurement)

- When I'm using a surround source source, I'm able to switch to another stored profile (using the subwoofer remote) to enable it to function up to 120zHz. And since, as I previously mentioned, no bass managent is set up on the AVR itself, the subwoofer is only dedicated to outputting sound from the 0.1 channel.

 

- THE QUESTION: How will things work with GLM? Will I be able to control the subwoofer in the same manner with the GLM kit connected to just the 7380A, where I can just have a laptop connected to it (through the GLM box) and I can switch between full range (from as low as it goes up to 120 Hz) and a 'group' (what I understand to be the equivalent of a profile from reading the manual) that limits the subwoofer to where the fronts start to lose definition?

- OR: Are the measurements for these two different applications so wildly different that you'd need to run cables through all the speakers and the subwoofer when switching between these 'groups'? This is important, because running one cable isn't as big a deal as running six across the room. When I asked my dealer about this, I would just have to control the sub (therefore, running just one CAT cable).

- BONUS: When it comes to surround, is my approach of leaving the sub just to do it's thing wrong or right (not doing any crossover)? Will it be left up to me when creating groups, or does the GLM software create 'crossovers' between the L, C, R, LR, SR channels in a similar fashion to consumer AVRs when you're creating a 5.1 group? Because I'm not sure how that would work with the AVR again - I don't think it'd know to pass sounds that go lower than say a sound effect from the Left surround channel (8341A in this case) to the sub if those kinds of crossovers are done on the speakers themselves.

 

 

Also I recognize that this post also got a little out of hand. It all sounded so simple in my head when I first started writing it. frown

 

As for preferences when it comes to subs (@lukester); I'm just trying to go as low as I can.

lukester, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Stereo, surround and crossover

Jedi Master Posts: 296 Join Date: 4/22/10 Recent Posts

good god, this is a nightmare ;)

now i know, why i don't touch surround,

life is so much easier, if you only watch movies from the 60ies.

 

In surround it's normal that the Subwoofer plays up to 150Hz, other speakers get whatever is in their respective signal.

It's the job of whoever does the mix to get that right. but for stereo listening such an overlap is a no-no.

Yes, you can set filters for the sub in GLM.

The measurements for both applications are the same. this is about your listening position and speaker placement.

 

what i really want to get off my chest is this:

i have stereo 8351s for my main work rig.

i had a subwoofer here for testing and hated it. or rather, hiphop & techno got better, classical got way worse.

those speakers have such a precise stereo image, that a sub was detrimental to imaging.

if you like precise staging, get 2 smaller subs mountet close to the 8351s.

 

for the intricacies of bass management, we'll have to invert roles, read this and report back:

https://www.genelec.com/sites/default/files/media/Studio%20monitors/Catalogues/genelec_bass_management_-_centralized_vs_distributed_-_application_note_-_december_2015.pdf

 

 

 

jvi, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Stereo, surround and crossover

Youngling Posts: 5 Join Date: 5/16/18 Recent Posts
 
lukester:

good god, this is a nightmare ;)

 

 

This is kind of the reason I came here - to consult with the experts at Genelec before moving forward (I've been informed the sub will ship in the first week of June.)

 

lukester:

Yes, you can set filters for the sub in GLM.

The measurements for both applications are the same. this is about your listening position and speaker placement.

 

 

I think this answers a part of the question. What remains unanswered is how I handle bass management in a system like this. When the Genelec speakers (8351, 8341A) were intially installed, it was suggested that I set all the speakers to full band on the AVR. Since I didn't have a Genelec sub in this equation, I'm assuming there were no low-pass / high-pass filters to take into account when GLM measurements was being set up. Now, however, if I add a sub into the mix and make two groups my assumption is: 

- 5.1 (for surround) measurements will not create any high-pass / low-pass filters - speakers (5.0) will play their full frequency range unaltered while the subwoofer (0.1), being used exclusively for LFE playback, plays it's full frequency range (up to 120Hz)

- 2.1 (for stereo with subwoofer) group will create high-pass (L, R) / low-pass filters (SW) filters to ensure there's no overlap between what the speakers play and the subwoofer plays.  The fronts (8351) will cut or 'roll' off at frequency higher than in the the group specified above (eg. 32Hz optimally).

Now if this is how works, this means I will have to run a CAT cable to not just the sub, but also the fronts, since if I, for example, just stored the hypothetical stereo 'group' to the fronts and were to watch a movie on blu-ray, I would miss out on audio coming out of the front L and R channels playing at frequencies below the high-pass filter (that the speakers would otherwise be capable of producing). That's running the network cables to three speakers (L, R, SW) instead of one (SW) - unlike what I understood from the conversation with my dealer when I briefly asked him about it.

And of course, I'm still left wondering if the sub should be left to play just the sound dedicated to the LFE channel in a surround setup.

This might be a dumb question. It's my understanding that mixes for much of the surround content I consume are produced on these speakers or their nearest cousins and that in those kinds of environments, the subwoofer is only dedicated to the LFE channel - that is to say - if a sound from your right channel (8351) goes lower than the sound it produces, they don't pass it to the sub. That is to say, you're not supposed to hear it.

I don't mind if I come off as an idiot when it comes to this stuff - I rather do that than try to convince anyone here that I know things that I don't.

 

lukester:

what i really want to get off my chest is this:

i have stereo 8351s for my main work rig.

i had a subwoofer here for testing and hated it. or rather, hiphop & techno got better, classical got way worse.

those speakers have such a precise stereo image, that a sub was detrimental to imaging.

if you like precise staging, get 2 smaller subs mountet close to the 8351s.

 

for the intricacies of bass management, we'll have to invert roles, read this and report back:

https://www.genelec.com/sites/default/files/media/Studio%20monitors/Catalogues/genelec_bass_management_-_centralized_vs_distributed_-_application_note_-_december_2015.pdf

 

 

 


My library consist mostly of hip hop, ambient, soundtracks and electronic music. I can appreciate having a sub for some of those types of music, which why I made a thread concerning just that in the first place. It's an option that I'd be glad to have along side the option of listening to music purely on stereo. I also imagine there are other applications where the sub could be utilized along with the fronts - some independent games for instance, are 2.0 only. Now, those probably won't sound 'right', but I'd be curious to have a go at those nonetheless.

lukester, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Stereo, surround and crossover

Jedi Master Posts: 296 Join Date: 4/22/10 Recent Posts

you dindn't come off as an idiot and i mereley tried to be funny.

the nightmare isn't you, but me trying to work out surround in my head with consumer avr in the mix.

 

i find it hard to come up with a setup in my head, where running a network cable alongside the signal cables could be an issue.

network is daisy chained, from speaker to speaker.

sidenote: you should be able to get all the cables you'll want in white color options.

i wanted to deter you from a giant sub because i think it's overkill. you could upgrade your fronts to 1237s with the leftovers.

 

but hey, the gear you got or gonna get is beyond reproach, you have no reason to worry.

get it, play with it, you can also figure out the rest as you go along.

jvi, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Stereo, surround and crossover

Youngling Posts: 5 Join Date: 5/16/18 Recent Posts

I didn't take your comment as an insult to begin with - I was just putting an emphasis on my lack of understanding on this subject.

Running multiple CAT cables isn't an issue per-se - it's more that I'd like to go with as few as possible (all of this is set up in a living room) Hence, why I would love a reply from someone at Genelec. It might be difficult to give a definitive answer without seeing my setup in person, but nonetheless I'd appreciate any input.

Also I'd love to think I'm done upgrading my setup now for a bit - having gone from 8020s to 8351 / 8341A feels like a pretty substantial upgrade to say the least. Also I have to admit that I'm partial to the design of the Ones (one of the factors that drove me to switch the surrounds from 8340 to 8341A after they launched).

lukester, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Stereo, surround and crossover

Jedi Master Posts: 296 Join Date: 4/22/10 Recent Posts

I'd like to think, that for music you'd be served better with 2 smaller subs.

whenever that is.

look here

jvi, modified 4 Years ago.

RE: Stereo, surround and crossover

Youngling Posts: 5 Join Date: 5/16/18 Recent Posts

Noted, and thanks for the link. 

For now though, I'm married to the 7380A. blush